Huang Wenxuan(H): When viewing your exhibition, my spirit is so tightly bound that I find myself slightly breathless.  It is almost as if there is a strong force that takes a person’s mood and rips it into pieces, and that death seems to be closing in.  Is this the message that you wanted to convey? 
Ma Ke(M): You are highly sensitive.  A painting exhibition needs to collaborate with viewers.  I think that your feelings are very astute.  From my perspective, painting conveys a very real kind of existence for us, or a type of spiritual existence.  So, from a realistic point of view, people are surrounded by entertainment.  If they come into contact with real paintings, they will have such a feeling.  This is a real condition in life.  I believe that there is a standard of Chinese traditional art called “heavy bone and spirit cold,” which is generally more tranquil like bronze wares.  You will discover that the more ancient paintings are, the colder the feelings they evoke.  He draws parallels to the very real existence of life.  This is just like the feeling of “heavy bone and spirit cold” that you just described. 
From the moment people are born into this world, they become instilled with knowledge.  Their consciousness will gradually become a type of attempt.  However, knowledge does not take into account individual feelings.  In particular, I have grown this old, and the reality I have faced has been one of dramatic changes and extremely intense conflicts.  But, the amount of spiritual resources that reality is able to provide is actually very, very scarce.  So, you are almost unable to receive any type of care or comfort for the soul or mind.  And, people become vulgarized and made into forms of entertainment.  What people encounter is a type of superficial happiness, and they find themselves unable to find spiritual comfort.  For example, Munch’s The Scream expresses the urgent need for spiritual resources that people have amidst the dramatic changes of modern society.  Over the past sixty years, China’s development has placed a heavy emphasis on politics and the economy.  Culture has been destroyed, especially the culture of the proletariat.  Additionally, culture produces a stabilizing effect, like the deep, yet stable rhythm of the ocean.  When this rhythm is disrupted, it is like waves - the surface becomes very rapid, impetuous, and noisy, but uncertainties lurk beneath.  If a person is even a bit sensitive and pays attention to their selves, a huge struggle will always result.  He will resist becoming diluted or made into a practical tool of their job.  Loss, numbness, cynicism, a lack of seriousness - aren’t these all characteristics of modern people? 
H: Is this conclusion the result of having overly rich life experiences?

M: No matter how old you get, when you look back, you will discover that the amount of real life experiences you have doesn’t depend on age.  Most of life is virtualized by society.  There are fragments of moments when you are truly existing.  So, I feel that artists create to produce this moment for people, allowing their lives to become richer and livelier.  As a result, you will feel a type of relative richness when looking at an artist’s work. The intention of a work is to kill the concepts you already hold. 

Instead, I think people are more complete when they are children.  After growing up, they will be classified by knowledge.  To give a simple example, the feeling you get when you are attracted to someone at first glance does not rely on knowing that person’s name, where they are from, or how much money they make.  The very moment you see them only consists of whether you like or don’t like them.  However, if a person is used to analyzing and judging others, and determines whether they like someone depending on that person’s family background, age, and amount of money, this is incomplete and no longer pure.   Sadly, this trend has already been secularized. And, real, lovable, and simple qualities are becoming increasingly scarce.

H: The expressions of the characters that you create are all distorted.  Some parts of the image’s composition are left blank across large areas.  At other parts, the image holds a strong tension as if it wants to burst out of the comforts of the frame.  Why do you include such characteristics?
M: If I want to sketch you, then I need to continuously be near you - near your so-called accurate and fixed shape.  At this time, there is strain on a spiritual level.  This type of continuous closeness and simulation can be achieved through the mere use of a camera.  What type of condition do I actually hope to achieve when I paint you?  I want to imagine you as me, and infuse my inner feelings.  This will guide changes in the form that transcend the original image.  I take you as my inner self.  When I paint you, I am actually painting myself, including all those men and women.  This is a very interesting thing.  For example, when I pick up a photo, I often think that it is not a painting.  Then, how do you change it into a painting?  What exactly is a painting?  I believe that paintings in China basically do not touch upon contemporary painting.  Then, where does the content and meaning of a painting lay?  Already, this is not a question concerning painting, but one that involves a visual aspect.  As a further example, if I look at you, I have to look at you multiple times before seeing your earrings.  The first thing I see is your eyes, from which I get a sense of your temperament.  Only gradually do I see more.  This method of observation is very intriguing.   It is not like a camera, which can capture an overall situation in one instant.  Painting captures a moment you view precisely.  However, this moment is a very complex system.  As a more specific example, if I particularly care about money or family background, then, what kind of a person do I think you are when I look at you for the first time?  Then, changes will occur to this observation.  This is similar to being a movie director.  The perspective I use to view people is the perspective of casting for a movie.  I will see whether you are suitable to be an actor for this film.  This is closely related to the system in the background of observation.  Where have I gone with this thread of discussion? 
H: How did the composition for your image end up this way?
M: All of these judgments of yours only suggest that there is a general and common notion for painting.  You discover that this differs from the stuff you have seen in the past, and which leads you to these judgments.  In fact, there isn’t anything. Similarly, when you see a moving film or read a sensational novel, a moment is produced.  This moment becomes a memory in your life that you will be able to recall.  Like a light that suddenly illuminates amidst darkness, it invokes a sense of “self-awareness.”  If it were a painting whose routine you were complete familiar with and which you totally know, a moment like this cannot be produced.  In fact, this type of painting belongs to the past.  It does not invoke the value of painting. 
H: Then, in other words, you are painting your own feelings?  And, perhaps what viewers feel is a sense of “self-awareness” that is generated due to the painting? 
M: Correct.  This type of feeling works collaboratively with viewers.  In particular, we now have a high-speed method of transmitting information.  The creation of the Internet allows us to obtain the same background.  And, in Chinese society, most people are pursuing wealth and power.  Very few people have the opportunity to accumulate and focus on the nature of our lives or that of our existence.  At this time, if there appeared something that is relatively incomplete compared to concepts defined in your past, you will ask why it is that way the moment it allows you to you participate and enter.  During the process of questioning, you develop a type of self-awareness.  If something tightly sealed is provided, and which seems to have nothing in relation with the current you, you will find it difficult to enter and participate in it. 
H: Let’s talk about your time in Africa again.  Have your paintings been greatly influenced by your experiences there? 
M: The feelings I have regarding Africa are similar to what I just mentioned.  That experience allowed me to foster “self-awareness.”  If a person’s “Just Because InThe Mountain,” it is very hard to be self-aware.  Africa is relatively primitive and lively. 
H: Do you feel that their condition is non-secularized in the manner you believe? 
M:I believe it has its own form of secularism.  For example, I discovered that the people who worked with me seemed to be lazier.  Just as a comparison, you probably wouldn’t be aware of your own shortcomings if you were in China.  But, when you are there, there is a very clear contrast.  Our Han ethnicity has matured to the point where there isn’t even dancing anymore.  Dance has become a type of ritual, a fixed model.  But, in Africa, dance is a very realistic state for pursuing a romance.  As a result, to me, its degree of intensity is jaw-dropping, leaving me immediately very shocked.  I suddenly became aware of the great shackles that our culture places on our consciousness and actions.  You simply cannot move out of them, and you completely lose this type of rhythm.  We have too many rules that tell you that you can’t move out of them, and that there simply is no way.  Now, we hit upon “propriety destroying human desires.”  But, today, this is actually reversed.  I believe that the world of today has changed into a cross-flow of human desires.  Asia is of a very old, or should I say very authoritarian, culture.  Africa is also full of cruelty.  It has its primitive side, but its bold and unrestrained passion is very attractive.  The people there are also very simple.  There aren’t that many things to influence. 
H: Of the two conditions, which do you like better?
M: It (Africa) probably gave me the opportunity to create my self-awareness.  It also directly revealed an immaturity, simplicity, and lack of richness and charm.  Chinese people emphasize on a resounding reverberation.  That realm is not the same.  I feel that I can only say they are different.  Plus, these are already a part of your genes.  Your strengths and tastes do not necessarily disappear when you leave this place.  So, I still feel that I am closer to things that are closer to my own relationships.  Perhaps it is this way. 

H:  In your works, there are many names that reference Chinese idiom stories.  Can you talk about how your paintings are influenced by Chinese classical culture?  
M: When I was young, my father bought a set of books consisting of Chinese idiom stories and hid it from me.  This was because I used to scatter a lot of books that he bought everywhere, or gave them to friends.  The house was no place to store books.  So, he bought a set and hid them.  Eventually, I found this set of books.  Each time, I would read them secretly and then return them to their hiding place after I was done.  Each time I returned them, these stories would leave an indelible impression with me.  To discuss paintings, well, the teaching system of today cuts in from the perspective of method and art history.  It begins from a level of technique.  As a result, you will discover that everyone is very similar, and that contemporary paintings that touch upon matters relating to their own culture are very scarce.  Basically, their content and themes are those relating to after the 1960s.  Anything before that is not contained.  But, I believe that the relationships you can sense between people come from an origin, and do not sprout up suddenly for no reason.  There is a reason why idioms have been retained throughout the course of history.  They must be very profound - simple, straightforward, and profound - and strongly representative to be preserved over such a long period of time.  For example, “pointing at a deer and calling it a horse” and “covering one’s head while stealing a bell” are idioms that you cannot avoid when looking at modern people.  Even though these idioms bring a negative connotation, they can allow us to be self-aware, as well as identify who we are and what the heck we are doing.  They are not only a form of self-reproach, but also criticism.  This type of reflection is inward, and has become a dimension for some of my paintings. 
I first paint the image, then incorporate idioms afterwards to provide viewers with a path of entrance into the painting.  With the rapid development of information technology in today’s society, situations blend with one another and forms can learn from each other.  When you see Renaissance paintings, you think that they must have been influenced by Eastern art before brushstrokes are loosened.  At the same time, you will also discover that you can wear a suit like the one I have now.  I can only also wear an earring like yours.  However, your own experiences cannot be exchanged.  Just like the idiom, “pointing at a deer and calling it a horse,” there is no way to exchange them with, say, an American, so that it becomes a part of their history and experience.  The experience I am talking about is a big experience, one of history.  The Declaration of Independence will never become a Chinese experience.  So, I feel that, particularly in present times, the form of painting will become increasingly livelier because they learn from each other.  Of course, this mutual learning between forms provides the possibility for a mutual understanding.  This is just like Chinese people learning oil painting.  I feel that deep in our bones, there is a “hope to use your language to tell my own story.” 
H: Are you saying that oil painting cannot become Chinese?
M: I think this notion isn’t entirely correct.  It is like this Western suit - it’s not unique.  Everyone can wear it.  Chinese people often emphasize a media’s uniqueness.  But, doing so is obstructive.  I believe that this is unnecessary.  For example, the China Pavilion at the World Expo was designed from ancient Chinese architecture, yet it was very ugly.  Maybe an American designer might create a building whose cultural origin is not obvious, yet it provides a new interpretation on the use of space or fosters new concepts for living spaces.  This is all very possible, yet it was not achieved through a superficial approach.  When Chinese talk about nationalization, they are hindering themselves.  It is ridiculous.   For example, if one had to paint a modern map of China, but approaches this in the same methods as Yuan Dynasty map making, it would be very absurd.  Actually, this is a kind of rationalization.
Chinese critics have a weakness in that art was lacking in their development.  Information obtained from a book is knowledge, while the moment when one actually sees an artwork is considered experience.  Lets say you could read all 81 volumes of Lao Zi’s Daodejing in one day, or could even memorize the entire text within a month.  Yet by doing so, the text will still not become a part of your experience.  That is almost impossible.
In fact, art creation leads to that moment I was talking about.  Only by overturning dogma can one create such an instance.  There, theories that these critics are expressing do not lead to such a moment.  Instead, they provide an opportunity for self-awareness.  Therefore, this is irrelevant to art, and is a kind of authority.  When talking about something so indescribable and intangible, they only talk about what is already known and useless instead of underlying intrinsic values.  This has led many artists to hold onto very stupid concepts.  Equally inane is the idea that if everyone stopped wearing Western clothing and donned traditional clothing instead, then a renaissance would occur.
H: Is it still possible?
M: I do not think it is impossible.  This is the result of collusion by everyone.  Artists who cannot think independently cannot resist thoughts of fame or fortune.  Regarding the authority I just mentioned, though this method is very outrageous, its focus should lie on an artist’s creativity rather than their imagination.  What one can imagine is not very meaningful.  Realistically, one could imagine spacecraft or even extraterrestrials, or just think about all the places they have not visited.  This is merely a way of thinking.
H: Then, how do you think an artist should be like?
M: Artist should forget the things they can imagine.  They need to rid themselves of those things.  Do not set artificial bounds because they are all imagined.  When eating a pizza, one does not think too much about whether it is a traditional food of not.  The use of computers has led to a new concept of sharing.  And, I think that, based on this realm of sharing, a new future has to created.  We should not discern between you or me, or say that this belongs to a certain person.  Making such a superficial distinction is the act of a second-rate, colonial culture.
Artists do not create for one particular ethnicity or group.  If what they create has value, then it belongs to all humanity.  However, if a culture does not belong to humanity, then it has no real value.  For example, in ancient China, foot-binding was considered sexy.  From a modern perspective, this is very absurd and perverted.  It might have been an acquired taste, a brutal one, of a certain culture, but it would have never become universal.  Because of this, the practice ceased to exist.  Lets say one was fond of brushwork and its underlying concepts, and that he or she made it a kind of hobby.  Then, that person would turn their back on experimenting with different painting techniques.  This would be like deviating into a dark, shadowy alley.  And, if one is too obsessed there, it is they who end up having a problem.  Similarly, if an European artist told you that only light is important in painting, then their definition is also too narrow.  This is all caused by an inferiority complex that stems from a pseudo-colonial culture.  Creating art that belongs to the entire world requires strength - the strength for an upward mobility, which is something universal.  Even if the whole of China had condoned foot-binding, it would remain wrong.  Therefore, I believe that one should not dwell on uniqueness.  Now, people have to stress the importance of having commonalities, and not something of a superficial uniqueness.  When a person is true to him- or herself, then they are innately unique.  This should not be artificially limited.
If an artist thought to herself: “My concepts are politically correct, therefore my works have value.”  This is a very utilitarian approach, and seeks to achieve a fictitious consensus due to feelings of fear.  However, art creation in itself should be approached by facing nothingness.  One should just dive in without dwelling too much about the outcome.  If one approaches it with the expectation for making financial gains, then it would be a great waste on a myriad of levels.  All of these things are connected to what precedes them on a spiritual level.  It does not provide any new spiritual resources.  When we are faced with problems in life or on a spiritual level, it does not provide spiritual resources.

H:  Your paintings evoke something very forceful: Anxiety!

M: Some people have also said that my paintings conjure images of hell.  I tell them that this is because you are a child, and our adult world is like hell for a child.  I am not the only one that is feeling anxiety.  Today, few artists talk about this.  However, I think that art creation is a form of devotion in which a pure emotion is conveyed.  I can say that it is a kind of purity.  Really, it requires love!  For example, when in love with a person, one does not dwell over getting something in return for their affections.  It is irrational, and opposite of one’s rational and calculating side.  This can be said to be our more precious and divine feature, which does not require any deliberation or calculation.  So, I believe that all artists exhibit this while they create.  I cannot ignore this.  The greatness of art is also related to this.  I think that art can preserve mankind’s divine side.  Nevertheless, we are no gods because we do succumb to greed, lust, unscrupulousness, and various desires.  Naturally, that is where anxiety comes from.

H: Do you agree with the saying, “Anxiety reflects humanity as it lingers by the edge?”

M: Throughout one’s life, one seeks to better themselves.  This is also true for humanity - to continuously improve and affirm our divinity, to continuously examine our animal-like and lustful nature is what is desired.  Therefore, isn’t art always judged under such contexts?  Defining ourselves and the next generation is the intrinsic nature of culture.  Isn’t it?  It is passed down from generation to generation.

I think that there is a relationship between a person’s abilities and what they undertake.  The heavier the load, the more anxiety they suffer.  In the past, artists merely conveyed a universal message or a divine one.  Of course, I am not religious.  But, according to Buddhism, humankind is a collective.  Therefore, a message conveyed by one belongs to all.  A good artist should be magnanimous, while a great artist for an era should bear the burdens of humanity (I am not referring to myself).  In a forsaken and lustful world that is on the brink of collapsing, I believe that anyone who is even a bit aware should think the same.  Worrying... reflecting...  not only about oneself but others as well.

H: If our world has succumbed to a universal decadence, then is there any hope left?

M: I recommend that you go see the sunrise in the morning.  It can evoke a positive side in you.  There is a strong bond between nature and humankind.  We share a rhythmical relationship with nature.  When there is an imbalance, natural disasters are soon to follow.  They can be sensed by animals beforehand, but not by humans.  This is because we have lost our innate spirituality.  Our rhythm has been disrupted, and we are disturbed and vexed.  This blinds us and makees us volatile.  All the things that are dear to us become lost.  Love is lost.  When that happens, we become lost and easily disturbed. 

When one does not desire anything, they are made whole.  Sometimes a gain is made through a loss.  I believe that humanity is a process of giving up to return to nature and ash.  Therefore, people have to learn to forsake certain things whose value is only defined by society.  Just let go a little.  Of course, I am not saying I am a saint, nor do I feel I can express this very clearly.  I just feel this is how it should be.

H: But, sometimes I fear that I will lose everything.  I don’t want to think about it, nor do I want to ponder about my value to myself or society.  Am I missing out on something?

M: You mentioned the word, “afraid.”  Think about it.  You probably have had nightmares that made you feel afraid.  But, what is the source of that fear?  Why and what do you fear?  Ask yourself these questions because you have to think this through.  Once I read a report, and it stated that most people’s fears were actually unfounded and did not exist.

H: That is right.  If one is always fearful, it will become very tiring, and it will make that person timid.  I am a bit like that myself now.

M: Let me tell you.  People are romantic, free, and spirited.  There are no burdens or restrictions.  You are alive!  That was how you were born.  Yet, when you want to return to that state, you end up only restricting yourself and losing who you were.  So, you see many artists rise up and settle somewhere. The place where they settle is where they succeed.  This is because when they succeed, the environment fictionalizes “the artist.”  This transcends what he or she had been originally.   When they become aware of this fictitious feeling, they try to act according to that imagined persona.  This is very sad.

H: Are you afraid that you will be like this too?

M: This is a challenge.  When everybody says that this painting is good, I try to let it go.  That belongs to the past because it belongs to the past.  It is something like that.  But, the most important thing is not to “fear.”  If that happens, a person is unable to do anything. 

Every young heart is perfect when it is brought into this world.  However, in the process of growth, their hearts are continuously squeezed and oppressed.  They are not used to this, and they will try to overcome these challenges.  The most perfect aspect of this is that this person can truly get to know themselves, and become self-aware and self-confident. People do not have the ability to make horizontal comparisons. Not everybody can run 100 meters in 9 seconds.  Let me bring up an example.  Let’s say an artist’s painting sells for 100,000 and your painting sells for 10,000.  As he basks triumphantly in front of you, you must be aware that if there was another artist who sold his painting for 100,000 in front of him, he would become dismayed.  Qi Baishi lived a stable and progressive life.  But, the vast majority of artists do not have this fortune.  They must continuously recall memories.  This is very cruel. 

Right now, most people, especially artists - it’s not about how much money your paintings can sell for, but it’s about your artistic life.  Do you still like painting?  Are you curious?  Are you still able to find the thrill in art creation?  Are you still able to refresh?  Can you improve and be better than everyone else?  Can you be vibrant and charismatic?  If you are bound by desires for wealth and fortune, you will feel endless amounts of suffering. 

In real life, everybody will suffer increasingly more spiritual wounds.  Our society is in extreme need for a creation of spirit.  The crux of the problem lies in the expansion of humankind.  To bring up an example, in business, when finance is based on using gold as collateral, it is a real and visible object.  But, when the scale grows larger and larger, our debt becomes collateral, which has led to the financial crisis.  Art is the same thing.  In the past, artists worked for God, then evolved into working for kings, nobility, and businessmen - all small groups.  But, this thing we call art needs the people.  It needs to be popularized, so that art becomes something for the people.  At this time, the need for artists becomes immense, but true artists have become scarce.  This has led to many artists breaking from the rule of basing art on their inner feelings.  Simply signing their names can make them money or call for a price label.  In the end, artists lose people’s respect, which is actually everybody over drafting a type of energy.  For example, Cezanne was considered to be elite and avant-garde for his era.  Only after a century had passed did his works become common.  But, if they had been common in the era in which Cezanne lived, then they would be fatally diluted.  One hundred years later, his art might have even been labeled as trash.  So, don’t think that art isn’t elite!  Art should be elite!  But, this is hopeless.  This is an irreversible stage that we, as humankind, have entered together.  Regardless if it is time accumulated by the artist or when the work is matured, only when a work achieves a certain degree can that moment appear.  This is akin to saying that a bun you made is delicious.  Your process, furnace, ingredients, and cooking time are all factors.  How about whether I give them to you in the last ten seconds as compared to thirty minutes?  Of course, the effects will be different.  The higher your demands, then the scarcer that object will become.   Much like that painting by Munch, it is impossible for that concentrated value to appear that much.  It is not possible for everyone to be an artist.